A long-time reader poses an interesting perspective on why campgrounds may not want to advertise having an on-site AED or provide CPR training for their staff
1. An onsite AED should not delay the calling the EMS. All CPR training includes the protocol to first notify the EMS and then retrieve an AED. Both can be done simultaneously if there are more than one person available at the scene.
2. Actually not having staff trained in CPR may increase the campgrounds liability as it may be an expectation that such a business would provide such training to their employees. Also, being certified in CPR does not escalate one into the being a medical professional. The Good Samaritan act which many States have in place, applies to anyone trained in CPR.
3. IF an AED is available it should be placed in an area that is accessible 24/7. There are specialized storage cabinets available for AEDs, many of which will sound an alarm when open alerting others of the emergent situation.
4. AEDs are designed so that even an untrained person can use the device. Many have easy verbal step by step instruction on their use.
In conclusive, campgrounds not having such a potential life-saving device available is doing a great disservice to its patrons. It is a proven fact that the speediest access to EMS and an AED does save lives.
Have to agree with Theresa on this. Unfortunately we live in a litigious society and despite various laws that try to shelter good Samaritans we have to look out for number one. Even though you have the best of intentions trying to do the right thing to the best of your ability; some ambulance chasing lawyer will try to turn a tragedy into a payday.
The one problem I see with the placement if an AED in the campground is the size of many of the facilities. The one SP we work every year is spread out over several acres with 6 separate bath houses. Plus a store and laundry area. I do have a concern for theft and vandalism and yes they must be inspected on a regular basis. However, the other problem many campgrounds, especially state parks, is they are a good 10 or even 20 minutes away from EMS ambulance facilities. Therefore CPR is essential for any chance of saving a life. In the event of cardiac arrest or afib it is priority that CPR be administered immediately. The several minutes that may pass before an AED can be located and brought to the emergency site if CPR is not administered makes the AED a moot device. Therefore to be as effective as possible in a campground setting is A: someone has to recognize in a very short time the instance of cardiac arrest and immediately notify 911, B: someone trained in CPR is available in a very short span of time is available to start compressions and C: someone else is tasked by direction or automatic intuition to locate and retrieve an AED unit. So many things have to happen in a short span of time under less than perfect conditions that just hanging an AED on a bath house wall in a large spread out campground is maybe better than nothing but in my experience almost futile under anything less than optimum circumstances. And we still have campgrounds that have less than stellar cell service. The one SP we work at would need probably no less than 12 AED units because the park area and CG are separated by about a mile plus you have trails running all through the area. Just a very challenging situation for any serious medical incident!!
1. Many campgrounds are large so having one at the office may not be practical and possibly delay the calling of EMS while trying to get to the device/
In training for how to use an AED folks are taught to call 911 before taking any other step. Usually, the first person will direct another person to go call 911 and then report back. This assures all that the system has been activated. If training is followed there will be no delay in calling 911.
2. Requiring training of employees actually may significantly increase the campground's liability as it implies they now have medical training. This as opposed to voluntary training which would be likely covered under "good samaritan" laws providing liability protection. Any campground considering this should check with their attorney first.
There is no “implication” that any responder has “medical training”. Again, in AED training it emphasized you are being trained to operate the AED, not perform procedures that you were not trained for. “Good Samaritan Laws” do not differentiate between being “voluntold” or actually volunteering to be trained. In all the training that my workplace conducted we asked for volunteers because of their desire to help and potential commitment to staying with the AED team for some time. Campground management might want to let their attorney know what the plan is. They should invite the local fire chief and the first responders for a cup of coffee and a walk through of the facility, so they all know the layout to better respond to any emergency. They will all learn about how long the response time should be.
3 Having an AED published as available, if it is kept in the office, might create unreal expectations as most campgrounds do not have offices that are open and manned 24/7.
Campgrounds have first aid kits, but don’t advertise that fact. They don’t need to make it available 24/7 as it is a tool. After calling 911, starting CPR will most likely get the onsite (overnight) workcampers attention. They can secure the AED, respond to the situation and begin using the AED.
4 Campgrounds should include closest available EMS direct phone number published plainly on reservation confirmations and registration packets. They should also have a system established with local emergency and EMS services to identify site locations it contacted by a guest, for best service if needed.
99% of the US is covered by 911. If the area isn’t covered by a 911 system then the correct number should be posted. Yes, the number should be posted on every bulletin board, in every restroom and on the map given at registration. Campgrounds should meet on a regular basis with the local fire department to help with a response plan including power and water shut offs. Unique hazards can be identified, issues mitigated and good plans written.
5.If a campground wants to make an AED available perhaps it would be better to be located (it/them) in easily identified locations such as outside the bath house or inside a laundry that is open 24/7. Many AEDs designed for placement in public places, such as airports and civic spaces come with easy to follow instructions for use by the untrained "good samaratin". - L.H.
If the location is the “office” then an after-hours number should be posted. Placing the AED in a public and visible place is great but presents the possibility of vandalism or theft.
The last part of Response #5 leads me to believe that the poster doesn’t fully understand the operation of an AED. Instructions are clear on the machine to get it set-up and once the pads are placed (diagrams included) the machine will take over, analyze the heart rhythm, announce if a shock is advised, warn everyone to “stand clear” and administer a shock. The folks doing CPR would stop when the machine issues warnings.
Remember an AED is a tool that can be used by anyone, but better if used by trained folks, in conjunction with “hands only” CPR. It is not a replacement for CPR but a force multiplier to improve the chances of survival.
The steps are still call 911, begin CPR and if available get the AED hooked up.
Just as fire extinguishers the AED needs to be inspected on a regular basis for the battery charge, general condition, and expiration date of the paddles/electrodes. Can the campground be found negligent If this is not done and the AED failed when needed?
Having an AED and not advertising it can create issues. But not having one, or letting people know it is available can cost someone their life. I have one and am trained 1st responder.
At least one state (South Dakota) requires PAD (AED) training as a graduation requirement.
My own now-grown children had CPR and AED training as a graduation requirement in northern Virginia.
According to this CDC overview, all states have some level of liability protection.
If liability protections for Good Samaritans in your particular state or locality are not sufficient, now is a good time to contact your elected officials to introduce appropriate legislation.
One potential issue for campgrounds AEDs is periodic inspections and maintenance. In some cases, that may be done via the same inspection requirements by the local fire department. However, a one-size-fits-all approach would probably not be feasible for all campgrounds.
Defibrillators have come a long way since 1916, when on a Sunday morning, an Army medical officer took a piece of fence wire, attached it to a vehicle generator, and attempted to revive a mobilizing National Guardsman, Private David Poppleton, who had just drowned in the James River of Dakota.
The campground I'm in (a state park) has the toilet paper secured with a padlock and the shower bench chained to the wall. Put an AED on the wall that anyone can walk off with or discharge playing around with it? The only place a campground could put one and reasonably except it would available and functional is in a staffed or locked office.
Placing an AED outside in a common area invites theft and vandalism. As a former camphost I would not take this training due to the liability exposure. Do I want access to one... yes... do I want to learn how to use one... yes... but I don't want it publicized due to unrealistic expectations and liabilities.
Sadly, in our litigious society, I must agree with the writer that liability concerns must be considered when choosing placement of an AED, as well as in making CPR training mandatory vs voluntary.
Placing the AED in an accessible location, one truly available 24/7, is priority. These devices are totally designed for anyone to use, regardless of previous training. Just the fact that a campground is willing to spend the money and has the social conscience to purchase one, is huge. Making it available is the key. Having staff trained, voluntarily, is akin to each of us making the decision to learn CPR ourselves. After taking annual recertifications for over 45 years, I still want to be covered by the Good Samaritan laws should I be in the position of having to respond to an arrest. So do the campground workers.
In response to the reader's concern
1. An onsite AED should not delay the calling the EMS. All CPR training includes the protocol to first notify the EMS and then retrieve an AED. Both can be done simultaneously if there are more than one person available at the scene.
2. Actually not having staff trained in CPR may increase the campgrounds liability as it may be an expectation that such a business would provide such training to their employees. Also, being certified in CPR does not escalate one into the being a medical professional. The Good Samaritan act which many States have in place, applies to anyone trained in CPR.
3. IF an AED is available it should be placed in an area that is accessible 24/7. There are specialized storage cabinets available for AEDs, many of which will sound an alarm when open alerting others of the emergent situation.
4. AEDs are designed so that even an untrained person can use the device. Many have easy verbal step by step instruction on their use.
In conclusive, campgrounds not having such a potential life-saving device available is doing a great disservice to its patrons. It is a proven fact that the speediest access to EMS and an AED does save lives.
An AED should be immediately available in all campgrounds for emergency use! Period !
The most obvious placement can be in laundromat areas, rest rooms, or lounge areas.
As a responsible American, everyone should possess basic training e.g...via Red Cross in CPR.
The most recent example of Damar Hamlin of the Bills speaks for itself ! It's about saving lives, folks !
AMF, M.D.
Makes sense to me what Theresa said and I also agree with Steven.
Have to agree with Theresa on this. Unfortunately we live in a litigious society and despite various laws that try to shelter good Samaritans we have to look out for number one. Even though you have the best of intentions trying to do the right thing to the best of your ability; some ambulance chasing lawyer will try to turn a tragedy into a payday.
The one problem I see with the placement if an AED in the campground is the size of many of the facilities. The one SP we work every year is spread out over several acres with 6 separate bath houses. Plus a store and laundry area. I do have a concern for theft and vandalism and yes they must be inspected on a regular basis. However, the other problem many campgrounds, especially state parks, is they are a good 10 or even 20 minutes away from EMS ambulance facilities. Therefore CPR is essential for any chance of saving a life. In the event of cardiac arrest or afib it is priority that CPR be administered immediately. The several minutes that may pass before an AED can be located and brought to the emergency site if CPR is not administered makes the AED a moot device. Therefore to be as effective as possible in a campground setting is A: someone has to recognize in a very short time the instance of cardiac arrest and immediately notify 911, B: someone trained in CPR is available in a very short span of time is available to start compressions and C: someone else is tasked by direction or automatic intuition to locate and retrieve an AED unit. So many things have to happen in a short span of time under less than perfect conditions that just hanging an AED on a bath house wall in a large spread out campground is maybe better than nothing but in my experience almost futile under anything less than optimum circumstances. And we still have campgrounds that have less than stellar cell service. The one SP we work at would need probably no less than 12 AED units because the park area and CG are separated by about a mile plus you have trails running all through the area. Just a very challenging situation for any serious medical incident!!
Mike here is my response to the poster LH.
Responding to the Article on AED
1. Many campgrounds are large so having one at the office may not be practical and possibly delay the calling of EMS while trying to get to the device/
In training for how to use an AED folks are taught to call 911 before taking any other step. Usually, the first person will direct another person to go call 911 and then report back. This assures all that the system has been activated. If training is followed there will be no delay in calling 911.
2. Requiring training of employees actually may significantly increase the campground's liability as it implies they now have medical training. This as opposed to voluntary training which would be likely covered under "good samaritan" laws providing liability protection. Any campground considering this should check with their attorney first.
There is no “implication” that any responder has “medical training”. Again, in AED training it emphasized you are being trained to operate the AED, not perform procedures that you were not trained for. “Good Samaritan Laws” do not differentiate between being “voluntold” or actually volunteering to be trained. In all the training that my workplace conducted we asked for volunteers because of their desire to help and potential commitment to staying with the AED team for some time. Campground management might want to let their attorney know what the plan is. They should invite the local fire chief and the first responders for a cup of coffee and a walk through of the facility, so they all know the layout to better respond to any emergency. They will all learn about how long the response time should be.
3 Having an AED published as available, if it is kept in the office, might create unreal expectations as most campgrounds do not have offices that are open and manned 24/7.
Campgrounds have first aid kits, but don’t advertise that fact. They don’t need to make it available 24/7 as it is a tool. After calling 911, starting CPR will most likely get the onsite (overnight) workcampers attention. They can secure the AED, respond to the situation and begin using the AED.
4 Campgrounds should include closest available EMS direct phone number published plainly on reservation confirmations and registration packets. They should also have a system established with local emergency and EMS services to identify site locations it contacted by a guest, for best service if needed.
99% of the US is covered by 911. If the area isn’t covered by a 911 system then the correct number should be posted. Yes, the number should be posted on every bulletin board, in every restroom and on the map given at registration. Campgrounds should meet on a regular basis with the local fire department to help with a response plan including power and water shut offs. Unique hazards can be identified, issues mitigated and good plans written.
5.If a campground wants to make an AED available perhaps it would be better to be located (it/them) in easily identified locations such as outside the bath house or inside a laundry that is open 24/7. Many AEDs designed for placement in public places, such as airports and civic spaces come with easy to follow instructions for use by the untrained "good samaratin". - L.H.
If the location is the “office” then an after-hours number should be posted. Placing the AED in a public and visible place is great but presents the possibility of vandalism or theft.
The last part of Response #5 leads me to believe that the poster doesn’t fully understand the operation of an AED. Instructions are clear on the machine to get it set-up and once the pads are placed (diagrams included) the machine will take over, analyze the heart rhythm, announce if a shock is advised, warn everyone to “stand clear” and administer a shock. The folks doing CPR would stop when the machine issues warnings.
Remember an AED is a tool that can be used by anyone, but better if used by trained folks, in conjunction with “hands only” CPR. It is not a replacement for CPR but a force multiplier to improve the chances of survival.
The steps are still call 911, begin CPR and if available get the AED hooked up.
Just as fire extinguishers the AED needs to be inspected on a regular basis for the battery charge, general condition, and expiration date of the paddles/electrodes. Can the campground be found negligent If this is not done and the AED failed when needed?
Having an AED and not advertising it can create issues. But not having one, or letting people know it is available can cost someone their life. I have one and am trained 1st responder.
All valid points and good ones as well. They make me wish I'd voted differently.
If you think you may need one, get one.
At least one state (South Dakota) requires PAD (AED) training as a graduation requirement.
My own now-grown children had CPR and AED training as a graduation requirement in northern Virginia.
According to this CDC overview, all states have some level of liability protection.
If liability protections for Good Samaritans in your particular state or locality are not sufficient, now is a good time to contact your elected officials to introduce appropriate legislation.
https://www.cdc.gov/dhdsp/policy_resources/pad_slfs.htm
One potential issue for campgrounds AEDs is periodic inspections and maintenance. In some cases, that may be done via the same inspection requirements by the local fire department. However, a one-size-fits-all approach would probably not be feasible for all campgrounds.
Defibrillators have come a long way since 1916, when on a Sunday morning, an Army medical officer took a piece of fence wire, attached it to a vehicle generator, and attempted to revive a mobilizing National Guardsman, Private David Poppleton, who had just drowned in the James River of Dakota.
The campground I'm in (a state park) has the toilet paper secured with a padlock and the shower bench chained to the wall. Put an AED on the wall that anyone can walk off with or discharge playing around with it? The only place a campground could put one and reasonably except it would available and functional is in a staffed or locked office.
Placing an AED outside in a common area invites theft and vandalism. As a former camphost I would not take this training due to the liability exposure. Do I want access to one... yes... do I want to learn how to use one... yes... but I don't want it publicized due to unrealistic expectations and liabilities.
Sadly those machines are very expensive & are easily stolen!
Snoopy
I am in a 55+ campground / co,op and there are 3 of these here and they offer cpr & training for there use. I thank them for doing this.
Sadly, in our litigious society, I must agree with the writer that liability concerns must be considered when choosing placement of an AED, as well as in making CPR training mandatory vs voluntary.
Placing the AED in an accessible location, one truly available 24/7, is priority. These devices are totally designed for anyone to use, regardless of previous training. Just the fact that a campground is willing to spend the money and has the social conscience to purchase one, is huge. Making it available is the key. Having staff trained, voluntarily, is akin to each of us making the decision to learn CPR ourselves. After taking annual recertifications for over 45 years, I still want to be covered by the Good Samaritan laws should I be in the position of having to respond to an arrest. So do the campground workers.