Are newer mid-to-large campgrounds of 36 sites and larger really only designed and built to 41% full load demand?
Or is that really the minimum design build for National Electrical Code compliance, and some (or many) built to a higher demand factor?
It seemed to me every site was occupied and most air conditioners were running at many of the Army Corps of Engineers campgrounds we enjoyed last summer.
Yes, that’s how many CGs were built, and some not even this well. That’s the main reason why low voltage at campgrounds is so common when they’re full and all the RV air conditioners are running.
This Class-B EV will be available for sale next month! With a range of only 108 miles it’s sure to arrive at a campground on empty. So how should a campground charge for this?
How much does adding a smart pedestal with metered electricity and additional circuit protection really cost a campground?
Why should a small Class B or C with one air conditioner (with a SoftStart) pay the same fee as a large Class A with three air conditioners and other high-consumption electrical appliances?
Though I’m not ready to accept metered water/sewer, metered electricity is palatable, even for short overnight stays.
You don’t need to add a meter. There are logging power monitors for $85 that could be installed in a standard pedestal and accessed by Bluetooth. I have not tried one yet, but it would be an interesting experiment.
Campgrounds don't pay for the gas you use to get to the campground, so why should they pay for the electricity you use to get there. Install standard EV chargers at an overflow parking area and bill users like they do out in public.
I looked at your chart and had a good laugh, because you are only showing part of the actual rates paid.
In my case, I lived in Southern California for many years, paying a residential rate to Southern California Edison. When we moved from there in 2018 (to become full time RVers) my NET cost was about $.36 kWh - even though the listed kWh rate was far less - on its own. This was because that utility was a master at disguising and hiding all the fees and taxes (over a dozen) added onto each bill - such as demand charges, distribution fees, line charges, etc, etc, etc. So the only fair way I could determine my actual kWh cost was to divide the Net Total final bill cost by the quoted umber of kWh actually used. And when I last did that in 2018 it came out to ~$.36 kWh. Yet your chart show CA Residential rates at only $.26. I know the real, actual billable cost is very likely much higher due to 5 years of rate increases and added fees. And I believe they have yet to add any grid expansion fees due to mandated higher electrical usages. But I am sure they are coming. So it would not surprise me to see current net costs for my house to now be over $.50 kWh. We had gotten to the point of not running our home A/C much at all due to such high rates - it was cheaper to ride around in our car and go to the mall in order to get "free" A/C on hot days.
2 - CG electrical usage. Totally agree that almost all CGs are only wired for typical RV usage, supplying a mix of 30 and 50 amps to each site. They were never designed for added loads of charging EVs, so I think it would be appropriate to add electrical fees for people who want to charge their EV on-site. Though I have to say that I have never seen an EV used as a TOAD - and very, very few EVs driven separately along side any big rig.
But it is apparent that this will become a bigger issue as more EVs come on-line, and I am sure there are some owners who think they can charge up for free at many CGs. So unfortunately many CGs are going to have to upgrade their CG grid and power pedestals and change electrical billing systems to manage this because they just cannot afford to give this energy away for no extra cost.
Thanks again to you for looking deeper into this issue and giving us some real, true facts. Greatly appreciate what you are doing.
To #2 on your list. While it would be great if campgrounds upgraded........but in reality it will be much more likely, and much easier on the campground, to simply raise their rates for everyone as they are already doing as Corporate ownership takes over.
Your chart is off by 50 - 75% for Missouri. I have an account there, just checked over the last year.
Why would the powerful be pushing EVs when they know the system cannot handle the load and will fail? They want it to fail, so they can "Regulate" how much everyone uses. Control.
I understand that nothing is free. I would have no problem paying for the electricity I used in my RV, but I am not happy if I have to subsidize the electricity used by a 40' Class-A with electric heat and water heating plus a residential Refrig and TV. My 24' Class-C uses very little electricity as other than the furnace fan and the microwave used to heat a frozen dinner my laptop is the the main user of electricity. I know that meters aren't free but I wish each camping
Your chart is not even close to my reality in San Diego. Our progressive government has come up with a cap and trade scheme which passes punitive taxes onto our citizens in the form of higher electrical costs to "save the environment". Thus we pay confiscatory rates so that people with electric cars can receive an annual rebate. In reality it's a rob from Peter to pay Paul scheme.
From SDGE's own website, and remember, we have many price tiers which is part of their hocus-pocus as it relates to "renewable" energy. Yep, the sun don't shine at night.
I really appreciate the points you bring up. May I suggest you take a look at NFPA 1192 Standard on Recreational Vehicles and NFPA 1194 Standard for Recreational Vehicle Parks and Campgrounds. Both are open for public input, closes June 1 2023. Additionally the NEC is also open for public input, code panel 7 addresses Campgrounds. Your experience addressing EV charging and vehicle needs on a code basis would add value to their process and the RV community. Just mt two cents.
I have a Hughes “Watchdog” EMS that can measure KW used with the ability to reset back to zero anytime. Perhaps you could ask us to meter and record our usage. I can report my usage tomorrow. Camping, 50 amp service, central Florida with 89F today and 2 AC’s running.
Yes, that’s a great idea. If any of you have a Surge Protector with a kilowatt-hr metering function please provide daily or weekly readings. K need some actual field data for my calculations.
So far for the last week my Class A Newmar Mountain Aire DP (which has excellent insulation) has used 45 KWh of shore power. We are in central Florida and this week the temperatures are in the high 80's and low 90's. When full timing at Thousand Trails Orlando on a monthly rental, we paid for the electricity. The bill ranged from $65-$120 per month, depending on the season. Summer months were the highest. Water heater was on electric. 2 roof AC units working hard during the summer. Residential fridge using shore power. Hope this helps.
The electric cable and supply breaker to a pedestal is sized for the 50 amp plug and usually does not have a separate supply for the 50, 30, and 20 amp plugs. Using the 30 amp to charge an EV and plug a camper using 2-3 AC units, hot water heater, and miscellaneous other loads will more than likely overload the service to the pedestal.
In 2008ish I traveled around Yuma. There was a controversy about CGs adding a % to elec. cost/site. Sometimes double their cost. A state law was passed prohibiting this practice but enforcement was left to the civil courts, you had to sue to get your money back from the CG. Don't know the current status in Az., but since, I check rates where I stay to keep track how I'm being charged. If within reason, OK.
Campgrounds have the opportunity to be part of the solution for the rapidly evolving electrification of American transportation.
Also, a more robust and reliable electrical grid, supplied by more renewable, decentralized and distributed small energy production, is a significant improvement of today’s society.
RVs should, and will, improve their energy efficiency, especially in their climate control systems. New and improved designs for practical & efficient RV heat pumps to replace the long-time roof air conditioning units are very much needed.
Similarly, campground energy distribution capabilities beg to be reviewed and updated. Many small campground occupancy rates are a small fraction of total capacity during week days, but are designed to fill to overflowing for local events and festivals during the hottest days of the year.
Some of these campgrounds are well situated for their own small solar farms and energy storage. I fondly recall the time, sitting outside my RV at a picnic table enjoying a melting ice cream cone as the sun sank, watching the adjacent solar farm tilt their panels to the west, then at sunset, tilt to the east to await the sunrise. It was surprisingly…quiet.
A Tesla Model 3, using a TT-30 adapter draws about 24A, the equivalent of only 10 miles of range for every hour of charge. Using the NEMA 14-50 connector (the 50Amp outlet on the campground pedestal), the draw is 32A 240V continuous, or about 30 miles of range per hour of charge.
If a campground is approaching its total electrical load capacity due to combined RV usage plus EV charging, shedding some load may be possible by restricting EV charging to the TT-30 plug.
In areas of our nation with few to none EV charging stations available, such as my parents hometown in South Dakota, 60 to 95 miles from the nearest Supercharger station, the city campground has an opportunity today to add to their revenue by using their mostly unused campsites‘ pedestals to charge EVs, for a fair fee.
Assuming they can find the pedestal under all that snow.
At the RV park we are currently staying in (Houston, TX), the monthly rent rate will go up $35, but the charge for electricity will go from .14 cents per KWH down to .08 per KWH. It almost seems like a "wash" when we look at our monthly bill. Once the Houston summer officially kicks in, air conditioners will be on 24/7! Our electric bills last summer were crazy! 914 KWH at .14 cost us $135/mo. With this new rate I expect the electric bill be easier to digest . . .
If you want to study how existing electrical code applies to powering campgrounds, read this study while paying extra attention to campground demand factors: https://www.jadelearning.com/blog/sizing-rv-park-electrical-services-using-nec-table/
Are newer mid-to-large campgrounds of 36 sites and larger really only designed and built to 41% full load demand?
Or is that really the minimum design build for National Electrical Code compliance, and some (or many) built to a higher demand factor?
It seemed to me every site was occupied and most air conditioners were running at many of the Army Corps of Engineers campgrounds we enjoyed last summer.
Yes, that’s how many CGs were built, and some not even this well. That’s the main reason why low voltage at campgrounds is so common when they’re full and all the RV air conditioners are running.
This Class-B EV will be available for sale next month! With a range of only 108 miles it’s sure to arrive at a campground on empty. So how should a campground charge for this?
https://www.rv.com/rv/trending-rvs/electric-rv-startup-grounded-announces-g1-camper-van/
How much does adding a smart pedestal with metered electricity and additional circuit protection really cost a campground?
Why should a small Class B or C with one air conditioner (with a SoftStart) pay the same fee as a large Class A with three air conditioners and other high-consumption electrical appliances?
Though I’m not ready to accept metered water/sewer, metered electricity is palatable, even for short overnight stays.
You don’t need to add a meter. There are logging power monitors for $85 that could be installed in a standard pedestal and accessed by Bluetooth. I have not tried one yet, but it would be an interesting experiment.
https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/products/gen-2-emporia-vue-whole-home-energy-monitor
Campgrounds don't pay for the gas you use to get to the campground, so why should they pay for the electricity you use to get there. Install standard EV chargers at an overflow parking area and bill users like they do out in public.
Re: Electricity Rates -
I looked at your chart and had a good laugh, because you are only showing part of the actual rates paid.
In my case, I lived in Southern California for many years, paying a residential rate to Southern California Edison. When we moved from there in 2018 (to become full time RVers) my NET cost was about $.36 kWh - even though the listed kWh rate was far less - on its own. This was because that utility was a master at disguising and hiding all the fees and taxes (over a dozen) added onto each bill - such as demand charges, distribution fees, line charges, etc, etc, etc. So the only fair way I could determine my actual kWh cost was to divide the Net Total final bill cost by the quoted umber of kWh actually used. And when I last did that in 2018 it came out to ~$.36 kWh. Yet your chart show CA Residential rates at only $.26. I know the real, actual billable cost is very likely much higher due to 5 years of rate increases and added fees. And I believe they have yet to add any grid expansion fees due to mandated higher electrical usages. But I am sure they are coming. So it would not surprise me to see current net costs for my house to now be over $.50 kWh. We had gotten to the point of not running our home A/C much at all due to such high rates - it was cheaper to ride around in our car and go to the mall in order to get "free" A/C on hot days.
2 - CG electrical usage. Totally agree that almost all CGs are only wired for typical RV usage, supplying a mix of 30 and 50 amps to each site. They were never designed for added loads of charging EVs, so I think it would be appropriate to add electrical fees for people who want to charge their EV on-site. Though I have to say that I have never seen an EV used as a TOAD - and very, very few EVs driven separately along side any big rig.
But it is apparent that this will become a bigger issue as more EVs come on-line, and I am sure there are some owners who think they can charge up for free at many CGs. So unfortunately many CGs are going to have to upgrade their CG grid and power pedestals and change electrical billing systems to manage this because they just cannot afford to give this energy away for no extra cost.
Thanks again to you for looking deeper into this issue and giving us some real, true facts. Greatly appreciate what you are doing.
To #2 on your list. While it would be great if campgrounds upgraded........but in reality it will be much more likely, and much easier on the campground, to simply raise their rates for everyone as they are already doing as Corporate ownership takes over.
Your chart is off by 50 - 75% for Missouri. I have an account there, just checked over the last year.
Why would the powerful be pushing EVs when they know the system cannot handle the load and will fail? They want it to fail, so they can "Regulate" how much everyone uses. Control.
I understand that nothing is free. I would have no problem paying for the electricity I used in my RV, but I am not happy if I have to subsidize the electricity used by a 40' Class-A with electric heat and water heating plus a residential Refrig and TV. My 24' Class-C uses very little electricity as other than the furnace fan and the microwave used to heat a frozen dinner my laptop is the the main user of electricity. I know that meters aren't free but I wish each camping
spot had it's own meter.
Your chart is not even close to my reality in San Diego. Our progressive government has come up with a cap and trade scheme which passes punitive taxes onto our citizens in the form of higher electrical costs to "save the environment". Thus we pay confiscatory rates so that people with electric cars can receive an annual rebate. In reality it's a rob from Peter to pay Paul scheme.
From SDGE's own website, and remember, we have many price tiers which is part of their hocus-pocus as it relates to "renewable" energy. Yep, the sun don't shine at night.
https://www.sdge.com/total-electric-rates
Margaritaville Resort in Auburndale FL strictly prohibits EV charging on property. Not sure how they police it though.
I really appreciate the points you bring up. May I suggest you take a look at NFPA 1192 Standard on Recreational Vehicles and NFPA 1194 Standard for Recreational Vehicle Parks and Campgrounds. Both are open for public input, closes June 1 2023. Additionally the NEC is also open for public input, code panel 7 addresses Campgrounds. Your experience addressing EV charging and vehicle needs on a code basis would add value to their process and the RV community. Just mt two cents.
I’m already in discussion with the NEC Code Making Panel 7 (CMP-7) about this.
I have a Hughes “Watchdog” EMS that can measure KW used with the ability to reset back to zero anytime. Perhaps you could ask us to meter and record our usage. I can report my usage tomorrow. Camping, 50 amp service, central Florida with 89F today and 2 AC’s running.
Yes, that’s a great idea. If any of you have a Surge Protector with a kilowatt-hr metering function please provide daily or weekly readings. K need some actual field data for my calculations.
So far for the last week my Class A Newmar Mountain Aire DP (which has excellent insulation) has used 45 KWh of shore power. We are in central Florida and this week the temperatures are in the high 80's and low 90's. When full timing at Thousand Trails Orlando on a monthly rental, we paid for the electricity. The bill ranged from $65-$120 per month, depending on the season. Summer months were the highest. Water heater was on electric. 2 roof AC units working hard during the summer. Residential fridge using shore power. Hope this helps.
Great info, thanks…
The electric cable and supply breaker to a pedestal is sized for the 50 amp plug and usually does not have a separate supply for the 50, 30, and 20 amp plugs. Using the 30 amp to charge an EV and plug a camper using 2-3 AC units, hot water heater, and miscellaneous other loads will more than likely overload the service to the pedestal.
That’s correct. But I see EV owners doing it…
My rate in NW PA with First Energy is 10.4 cents per KWH.
In 2008ish I traveled around Yuma. There was a controversy about CGs adding a % to elec. cost/site. Sometimes double their cost. A state law was passed prohibiting this practice but enforcement was left to the civil courts, you had to sue to get your money back from the CG. Don't know the current status in Az., but since, I check rates where I stay to keep track how I'm being charged. If within reason, OK.
In theory, campgrounds are not allowed to mark up kWh rates. But they can add a service charge, especially for EV charging.
Campgrounds have the opportunity to be part of the solution for the rapidly evolving electrification of American transportation.
Also, a more robust and reliable electrical grid, supplied by more renewable, decentralized and distributed small energy production, is a significant improvement of today’s society.
RVs should, and will, improve their energy efficiency, especially in their climate control systems. New and improved designs for practical & efficient RV heat pumps to replace the long-time roof air conditioning units are very much needed.
Similarly, campground energy distribution capabilities beg to be reviewed and updated. Many small campground occupancy rates are a small fraction of total capacity during week days, but are designed to fill to overflowing for local events and festivals during the hottest days of the year.
Some of these campgrounds are well situated for their own small solar farms and energy storage. I fondly recall the time, sitting outside my RV at a picnic table enjoying a melting ice cream cone as the sun sank, watching the adjacent solar farm tilt their panels to the west, then at sunset, tilt to the east to await the sunrise. It was surprisingly…quiet.
A Tesla Model 3, using a TT-30 adapter draws about 24A, the equivalent of only 10 miles of range for every hour of charge. Using the NEMA 14-50 connector (the 50Amp outlet on the campground pedestal), the draw is 32A 240V continuous, or about 30 miles of range per hour of charge.
If a campground is approaching its total electrical load capacity due to combined RV usage plus EV charging, shedding some load may be possible by restricting EV charging to the TT-30 plug.
In areas of our nation with few to none EV charging stations available, such as my parents hometown in South Dakota, 60 to 95 miles from the nearest Supercharger station, the city campground has an opportunity today to add to their revenue by using their mostly unused campsites‘ pedestals to charge EVs, for a fair fee.
Assuming they can find the pedestal under all that snow.
At the RV park we are currently staying in (Houston, TX), the monthly rent rate will go up $35, but the charge for electricity will go from .14 cents per KWH down to .08 per KWH. It almost seems like a "wash" when we look at our monthly bill. Once the Houston summer officially kicks in, air conditioners will be on 24/7! Our electric bills last summer were crazy! 914 KWH at .14 cost us $135/mo. With this new rate I expect the electric bill be easier to digest . . .
Count yourself lucky. Out here in the California desert, summer electrical bills can get close to $1,000 a month.
As you can see in my chart, electricity cost varies significantly by state as well as ambient temperature.