We have a View (a Navion twin) travel with our dog, and are considering getting a couple ebikes, so this grabbed my attention.
Ebikes tend to use lithium-ion batteries, which are not as safe as lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP). Here are a couple FAQs I came across:
"Can LiFePO4 catch fire?
LiFePO4 batteries are the safest of the lithium batteries, because they will not catch fire, and won’t even overheat. Even if you puncture the battery it will not catch fire. This is a massive upgrade over other lithium batteries, which can overheat and catch fire."
"Is LiFePO4 better than lithium-ion?
The LiFePO4 battery has the edge over lithium-ion, both in terms of cycle life (it lasts 4-5x longer), and safety. This is a key advantage because lithium-ion batteries can overheat and even catch fire, while LiFePO4 does not."
Mike, while you are researching can you go one step further. Are good lithiums safe to store inside? I only charge and store my ebike battery outside on my balcony. I put a timer on and disconnect the charger after about 2 hours.
I expect our Strata Corporation might impose special rules some day. Your guidance would help the Council, HOA in the US, in setting rules. We also have mobility carts plugged in at all times in the underground parking.
People talk about storing in a metal box which poses a couple questions as I know LI fires are hard to extinguish. Do they make their own oxidizer, like a magnesium fire? How hot do they burn? Will they melt that metal box?
I'm replying up here because I can't seem to reply below:
Of course keeping it dry is best, but the main concern is salt water.
If the battery is the lithium-ion type (typical for ebikes) I'd be reluctant to store in inside the truck. If it's LiFePO4 it's safe (see my post below).
You might consider keeping the battery in the bike and protecting the bike from rain (may be easier said than done) or remove the battery and store it in a weather tight metal box.
I just checked Blain's Farm & Fleet, because farm stores are often good for stuff like that. Most of their toolboxes are plastic, but this one is steel, waterproof, and has great reviews:
Just Google "eBike Fires" - lots of info out there. What wasn't mentioned is the water they were exposed to - was it fresh or salt? Most small Li batteries are of the "jelly roll" construction method. This means only an extremely thin layer separating + and -. Any dendrite that forms can easily puncture this film, resulting in thermal runaway. Salt water is particularly nasty for corrosion. Hence all the Tesla-type vehicles that ignite following exposure to flood waters after a hurricane, etc.
Once again, I could not post a comment below, so I'm doing it this way:
Good questions Randy. I suggested a heavy gauge metal (steel) tool/storage box as opposed to the more common plastic (a no brainer) but perhaps in some cases a lithium battery fire could melt steel?
There are fire-rated storage cabinets used for storing flammable liquids, but they are typically large and expensive -- and not specifically designed to contain li-ion battery fires. Still, better than a single-wall steel box.
This may not be a practical option for those who already own an ebike with lithium-ion batteries, but it seems like a good idea to look for ebikes that use LFP batteries. They are very safe. The drawback is lower energy density.
I'm still having trouble posting replies, so I'm posting up here.
Regarding the lithium battery storage bags, the Amazon page refers to the "FMVSS 302 Flame Test." It uses a Bunsen burner:
"The test sample is held horizontally in a U-shaped holder and exposed to a flame for 15 seconds in a combustion chamber, in order to see if/when the flame extinguishes, or the time taken for the flame to pass a defined distance. The burning rate per minute is then calculated. For most automotive applications, a burning rate of no more than 100 mm/min is acceptable, although some vehicle manufacturers have tightened the requirements."
I read some Amazon 5-star reviews, but none mentioned actually having a battery catch on fire while inside the bag.
I know very little about this, but I've read that lithium battery fires are extremely hot and very difficult to extinguish. The FMVSS 302 Flame Test may be adequate, but I wonder if there is a more appropriate test.
It would be interesting to get a few e-Bike battery samples along with different storage bags, and subject the batteries to a salt water bath or voltage stress.
I'm still having trouble posting replies, so I'm posting up here.
Regarding the lithium battery storage bags, the Amazon page refers to the "FMVSS 302 Flame Test." It uses a Bunsen burner:
"The test sample is held horizontally in a U-shaped holder and exposed to a flame for 15 seconds in a combustion chamber, in order to see if/when the flame extinguishes, or the time taken for the flame to pass a defined distance. The burning rate per minute is then calculated. For most automotive applications, a burning rate of no more than 100 mm/min is acceptable, although some vehicle manufacturers have tightened the requirements."
I read some Amazon 5-star reviews, but none mentioned actually having a battery catch on fire while inside the bag.
I know very little about this, but I've read that lithium battery fires are extremely hot and very difficult to extinguish. The FMVSS 302 Flame Test may be adequate, but I wonder if there is a more appropriate test.
Thanks Mike for sharing this sad story. I don’t have an e-bike but I did some research. Typical Rad E-Bike Battery Specifications:
Capacity: 480 Wh - 672 Wh
Voltage: 48V
Current: 15-20A
There is obviously a lot of stored energy in an e-bike battery! I watched a video on how to remove them from a RAD e-bike and it gave me some insights. The battery was mounted on the seat tube and the electrical connector and contacts appeared to be at the bottom where they would get wet if the bike was ridden through water as described. There is a lot of discussion on-line about what to do when e-bike batteries get wet. The common theme seems to be to remove them and find a way to dry them out. Lots of suggestions are out there. I would also think one should observe them for a while (I guess days based on Mike’s article) to make sure they aren’t getting hot. I have a metal trash can at home but some kind of metal container (or a fire pit at a camp ground) might be a good place to store them until one is sure they won’t get hot and ignite. I assume this does not happen very often but it would be interesting to know how often it does happen. Batteries getting wet (including with salty water) has to be a thing with electric cars too. I wonder if this particular brand of e-bike has an issue? Lots of questions come to mind. It’s quite an interesting topic to learn more about.
What about the E bike manufacture RAD? The information they supplied wasn't in line with their situation! One would think the battery compartment would be sealed from water getting in. So 6 days later those bombs went off, seems like RAD really didn't have clue to their situation! So happy no lives were harmed, luckily for them they had a guardian angel watching over them with leaving their 2 pups at home.
Hi Mike, I'm looking at Ebike for RV. Everything I read is to remove the battery while traveling. So how should they be stored in the RV? Slightly different question then a damaged battery
Wow! Sorry for this guy! Now the question: What should he have done different. Put those batteries in a dumpster??? Froze them in a block of ice? Put them in the campground fire ring and burn them in a controlled environment? What should you do with damaged Lion Batteries?
I’ve found a bunch of fire resistant lithium battery storage bags on Amazon. Here’s one for eBike batteries. More to study…
https://a.co/d/9QUgPj1
We have a View (a Navion twin) travel with our dog, and are considering getting a couple ebikes, so this grabbed my attention.
Ebikes tend to use lithium-ion batteries, which are not as safe as lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP). Here are a couple FAQs I came across:
"Can LiFePO4 catch fire?
LiFePO4 batteries are the safest of the lithium batteries, because they will not catch fire, and won’t even overheat. Even if you puncture the battery it will not catch fire. This is a massive upgrade over other lithium batteries, which can overheat and catch fire."
"Is LiFePO4 better than lithium-ion?
The LiFePO4 battery has the edge over lithium-ion, both in terms of cycle life (it lasts 4-5x longer), and safety. This is a key advantage because lithium-ion batteries can overheat and even catch fire, while LiFePO4 does not."
https://lithiumhub.com/lifepo4-batteries-what-they-are-and-why-theyre-the-best/
There are ebikes that use LFP batteries. It might be worth considering one of them. I definitely will.
Mike, while you are researching can you go one step further. Are good lithiums safe to store inside? I only charge and store my ebike battery outside on my balcony. I put a timer on and disconnect the charger after about 2 hours.
I expect our Strata Corporation might impose special rules some day. Your guidance would help the Council, HOA in the US, in setting rules. We also have mobility carts plugged in at all times in the underground parking.
Everyone: I just saw this Safe Shield battery on the Rad website.
https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/safe-shield-batteries#bsai-open
People talk about storing in a metal box which poses a couple questions as I know LI fires are hard to extinguish. Do they make their own oxidizer, like a magnesium fire? How hot do they burn? Will they melt that metal box?
Great questions. I’m creating a bulleted question list which I’ll send to a bunch of Lithium battery and eBike manufacturers next week. We shall see…
Hi Cheryl,
I'm replying up here because I can't seem to reply below:
Of course keeping it dry is best, but the main concern is salt water.
If the battery is the lithium-ion type (typical for ebikes) I'd be reluctant to store in inside the truck. If it's LiFePO4 it's safe (see my post below).
You might consider keeping the battery in the bike and protecting the bike from rain (may be easier said than done) or remove the battery and store it in a weather tight metal box.
I just checked Blain's Farm & Fleet, because farm stores are often good for stuff like that. Most of their toolboxes are plastic, but this one is steel, waterproof, and has great reviews:
https://www.farmandfleet.com/products/694987-speeco-black-tractor-mounted-tool-box.html
If the battery will fit, it might be a good choice.
Carry my new eBike on my F250. Battery in or out? What about rain? How to protect battery cavity? This is scary! Thanks
Just Google "eBike Fires" - lots of info out there. What wasn't mentioned is the water they were exposed to - was it fresh or salt? Most small Li batteries are of the "jelly roll" construction method. This means only an extremely thin layer separating + and -. Any dendrite that forms can easily puncture this film, resulting in thermal runaway. Salt water is particularly nasty for corrosion. Hence all the Tesla-type vehicles that ignite following exposure to flood waters after a hurricane, etc.
Once again, I could not post a comment below, so I'm doing it this way:
Good questions Randy. I suggested a heavy gauge metal (steel) tool/storage box as opposed to the more common plastic (a no brainer) but perhaps in some cases a lithium battery fire could melt steel?
There are fire-rated storage cabinets used for storing flammable liquids, but they are typically large and expensive -- and not specifically designed to contain li-ion battery fires. Still, better than a single-wall steel box.
This may not be a practical option for those who already own an ebike with lithium-ion batteries, but it seems like a good idea to look for ebikes that use LFP batteries. They are very safe. The drawback is lower energy density.
I'm still having trouble posting replies, so I'm posting up here.
Regarding the lithium battery storage bags, the Amazon page refers to the "FMVSS 302 Flame Test." It uses a Bunsen burner:
"The test sample is held horizontally in a U-shaped holder and exposed to a flame for 15 seconds in a combustion chamber, in order to see if/when the flame extinguishes, or the time taken for the flame to pass a defined distance. The burning rate per minute is then calculated. For most automotive applications, a burning rate of no more than 100 mm/min is acceptable, although some vehicle manufacturers have tightened the requirements."
https://www.averydennison.com/en/home.html
I read some Amazon 5-star reviews, but none mentioned actually having a battery catch on fire while inside the bag.
I know very little about this, but I've read that lithium battery fires are extremely hot and very difficult to extinguish. The FMVSS 302 Flame Test may be adequate, but I wonder if there is a more appropriate test.
It would be interesting to get a few e-Bike battery samples along with different storage bags, and subject the batteries to a salt water bath or voltage stress.
I'm still having trouble posting replies, so I'm posting up here.
Regarding the lithium battery storage bags, the Amazon page refers to the "FMVSS 302 Flame Test." It uses a Bunsen burner:
"The test sample is held horizontally in a U-shaped holder and exposed to a flame for 15 seconds in a combustion chamber, in order to see if/when the flame extinguishes, or the time taken for the flame to pass a defined distance. The burning rate per minute is then calculated. For most automotive applications, a burning rate of no more than 100 mm/min is acceptable, although some vehicle manufacturers have tightened the requirements."
https://www.averydennison.com/en/home.html
I read some Amazon 5-star reviews, but none mentioned actually having a battery catch on fire while inside the bag.
I know very little about this, but I've read that lithium battery fires are extremely hot and very difficult to extinguish. The FMVSS 302 Flame Test may be adequate, but I wonder if there is a more appropriate test.
My one question is were the plugged in for recharge at any time?
No, I don’t think so. It appears they were just storing the batteries after they were water damaged.
Thanks Mike for sharing this sad story. I don’t have an e-bike but I did some research. Typical Rad E-Bike Battery Specifications:
Capacity: 480 Wh - 672 Wh
Voltage: 48V
Current: 15-20A
There is obviously a lot of stored energy in an e-bike battery! I watched a video on how to remove them from a RAD e-bike and it gave me some insights. The battery was mounted on the seat tube and the electrical connector and contacts appeared to be at the bottom where they would get wet if the bike was ridden through water as described. There is a lot of discussion on-line about what to do when e-bike batteries get wet. The common theme seems to be to remove them and find a way to dry them out. Lots of suggestions are out there. I would also think one should observe them for a while (I guess days based on Mike’s article) to make sure they aren’t getting hot. I have a metal trash can at home but some kind of metal container (or a fire pit at a camp ground) might be a good place to store them until one is sure they won’t get hot and ignite. I assume this does not happen very often but it would be interesting to know how often it does happen. Batteries getting wet (including with salty water) has to be a thing with electric cars too. I wonder if this particular brand of e-bike has an issue? Lots of questions come to mind. It’s quite an interesting topic to learn more about.
What about the E bike manufacture RAD? The information they supplied wasn't in line with their situation! One would think the battery compartment would be sealed from water getting in. So 6 days later those bombs went off, seems like RAD really didn't have clue to their situation! So happy no lives were harmed, luckily for them they had a guardian angel watching over them with leaving their 2 pups at home.
Snoopy
I’m contacting RAD directly about this situation…
Hi Mike, I'm looking at Ebike for RV. Everything I read is to remove the battery while traveling. So how should they be stored in the RV? Slightly different question then a damaged battery
Wow! Sorry for this guy! Now the question: What should he have done different. Put those batteries in a dumpster??? Froze them in a block of ice? Put them in the campground fire ring and burn them in a controlled environment? What should you do with damaged Lion Batteries?
I’m asking all the eBike and lithium battery manufacturers I know to comment on this fire.